This Topic Hits Very Close to Home, Here is Where I Weigh in.

I myself am dating an international student. She was raised her for the majority of her life because of her father's work. After she graduated high school, she tried to come back to the United States to go to school. She had the most difficulty trying to accomplish this. While she did eventually make some sacrifices such as agreeing to come back to her home country after she finished school, she did have to try for her Visa on three separate occasions.

What I find frustrating about this situation is that she is a very intelligent person. Her marks in school are top honors and she graduated with Magna Cum Laude or Summa Cum Laude. Her scores were very similar in high school, yet she was discouraged from coming to a country which she already familiar with and already speaks the language.

Yet here we are fighting with Congress over immigrants to make up the lower end of the workforce.
If I would see this much enthusiasm for those who could continue our further advancement as opposed to those who take out the trash, then I would be all about immigration reform. As I see it right now, my girlfriend's life has been made increasingly difficult because of counter-terrorism measures making this country even less desirable to stay in.

I can see why Microsoft wants to increase the number of H1B visas. I think that is a good idea within some regards. I would like to see those with H1B Visas treated fairly and not given the bottom of the market wages.

One other issue that I have is why some of our international students are allowed to stay only to have such jobs as "Gas Station Manager?"

Re: Fareed Zakaria: The rise of the rest and the Post-American World

Very, very good analysis. A touch too optimistic feeling in a naive, "close your eyes, it's OK" way, but still quite good.

J.Ja

Re: Fareed Zakaria: The rise of the rest and the Post-American World

It could be argued that the period of time under discussion is closely correlated with the "Law & Order" series, and that to cancel that series would potentially have a catastrophic effect on the world's economy. :)

J.Ja

I think it ties in to a blog John Caroll had about opening up skilled immigration and H1Bs

I think it ties in to a blog John Carroll had about opening up skilled immigration and H1Bs. The problem is that there's a shortage of H1B visas and H1B people can be abused because they're tied to one employer. I personally know so many H1B visa people who are taken advantage of by their employer because they can't go anywhere else since they risk resetting the clock. If we reformed these rules and allowed the H1B candidate to roam, then their pay would be more equivalent to US citizens and they won't an unfair competitive advantage. So the demand for H1B applicants should go down because the employer can no longer hold them hostage but we could at the same time allow more H1B candidates to enter the country and make it easier for these people to bring in their families.

Bringing in highly skilled and educated immigrants is sort of like cherry picking the best minds from the entire world and this is what will keep America dominant in the world.

Re: Fareed Zakaria: The rise of the rest and the Post-American World

I met a guy on an H1B visa like that; when we tried to hire him, his present (at the time) employer threatened to not transfer the H1B to us, which would force him to go back to mainland China for a period of time and back into the H1B pool, which could take months, if not years for him to return. Personally, I was furious that someone would (or COULD) do that. I thought the Civil War ended human bondage in the US, but apparently that doesn't apply to foreigners.

J.Ja

Re: Fareed Zakaria: The rise of the rest and the Post-American World

I'm an Australian and we are having a similar issue here, though without quite the same xenophobia and religious extremism that appears (from the outside at least) to be existent in the US.

From my perspective it all comes down to teaching critical thinking, and science. I strongly agree with Fareed that the strength or vitality of any economy is a measure of the vigour of a society. Economics is a way of measuring a society's strength, and not an independent thing. It is linked to a somewhat indirect way of measuring of what I can only call the 'engine' and 'power output' of a society.

Probably the largest single effect on a society's 'engine' is its level of technology, and that comes down to its engineers and scientists. Just as a person with a shovel can move so many tons of dirt in a day, and someone in a bulldozer and move so much more, so to does technology amplify the efforts of a society in every field.

Encourage the engineers and scientists and innovation and efficiencies in every aspect of the society will thrive. Stifle them and the society will slowly but surely begin to wither. If there are not enough skilled scientists and engineers in a society (however you define 'enough' as) then by all means bring them into the country to do the jobs, but don't be so mean-spirited as to prevent them from becoming citizens if they wish it. Also don't stop skilled people from entering the country either - there are small mountains of evidence to show that skilled migrants bring in immense value to a society in every area, ranging from their technical speciality, through to increased social diversity, a richer culture, a more tolerant culture (when migrants are allowed to mix freely on their own terms and not forced into conforming to an arbitrary and artifical 'norm'), etc, etc.

While I don't want to bring any insult to people that are genuinely religious, religion is different to science. The US is pretty much the only place on earth that has a majority of its people and the majority of its leaders seriously believing that the world is approximately 6000 years old - even though the Sumerians were making glue and writing laws 7000 years ago. Millions and millions of dollars are spent on 'miracles' that promise weight loss without exercise, while the purchasers of these products have never been taught at any time in school or college the simple formula of energy in - energy out = weight gain/loss. This type of magical thinking and lack of critical reasoning affects many people in many ways and discourages innovation. It does this as critical thinking is a powerful tool that forms an essential link when someone has an idea, and wishes to make it a reality.

*ahem* sorry, I've done a bit of a rant.....but this is a sore point for me. I'm an engineer and last year the state of Queensland (where I live) has yet again dumbed down science and maths teaching due, in part, to the poor quality of teachers graduating from universities now. Now it is possible to go all the way through high school up to age 17 and never do even rudimentary calculus, or even learn what the scientific method is.

The US is one of the most tolerant places in the world

"through to increased social diversity, a richer culture, a more tolerant culture (when migrants are allowed to mix freely on their own terms and not forced into conforming to an arbitrary and artifical 'norm'), etc, etc."

America is one of the few countries where you can openly criticize the nation. It's one of the few countries that is tolerant of people bringing their own customs. Try going to Mexico and insulting Mexico. Go in to Thailand and insult the king. Go in to Russia and insult the Russians. I can assure you you'll be safer in the US from bodily harm.

"While I don't want to bring any insult to people that are genuinely religious, religion is different to science. The US is pretty much the only place on earth that has a majority of its people and the majority of its leaders seriously believing that the world is approximately 6000 years old"

What? This is a nation that doesn't even permit the teaching of creationism in schools so how do you make such a preposterous claim? This nation is one of the freest and most tolerant in the world when it comes to religion. There’s a good reason people all over the world choose the USA as their #1 preference to move to and they vote with their feet. We didn’t get that way because we are a bigoted, racist, and intolerant nation.

Look, I'm not trying to start an argument with you and I pretty much agree with the paper as you do. But you've got some pretty twisted perceptions of the USA. Is the US perfect? Hell no, far from it. Is it one of the most tolerant countries in the world? You better believe it. That's not to say we as a nation can't improve. It's why I posted this article here to get people to open up.

Not Creationism, Intelligent Design

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/08/AR2005110801211_2.html

My neighbor state to the West had to be the first to pull this one off. After years of bashing my own state of Missouri for being behind the times, Kansas has to be the first to take a leap backwards.

Although Creationism and Intelligent Design are fundamentally the same, subtle differences exist that make the latter acceptable to teach in schools. All the reason why I have chosen to be a Pastafarian.

Ramen!

On H1B Visas, I love your thinking George

I think that forcing a single person to work for an employer is a modified version of slavery that should be reconsidered. Can some one establish a reason for this that doesn't sound otherwise?

Re: Fareed Zakaria: The rise of the rest and the Post-American World

It's not *quite* a modified version of slavery, it is a re-invention of indentured servitude, from where I sit. The big difference is that the H1B visa'ed person still has some choice in the matter, even if it is a really lousy one. It's still a form of human bondage, no matter how you cut it though!

Pastafarian... I haven't ehard a reference to the Spaghetti God is over a year... and to think, I have a lab coat signed by the Reverand Ivan Stang of the Church of the Subgenius!

J.Ja

Slavery was a bit harsh

However, the choice isn't pleasant and can lock you into a job where you are not being paid for your full potential. I am aware of a Chinese employee at my facility who left after six years of employment because the employer wasn't helping out with the green card. While I would love to fault the employer on this matter, the issue is a bit more complex than that because of the unfamiliarity with the immigration department of the US.

Fortunately the employee of whom I am referring moved on to bigger and better things such as small projects like the Apple iPod Nano and the Apple iPhone.

Re: Fareed Zakaria: The rise of the rest and the Post-American World

Sorry George, perhaps I came across quite strong without meaning to, and ended up ranting more than actually expressing a rational opinion - for all that I apologise. I wasn't meaning to come across and comment on individual Americans, rather American politics, and the politics of nations that blindly follow American politics - like Australia - and that those actions are affecting many areas negatively.

From the outside at least it appears that the US, as well as many countries in the 'west' including Australia, is in many ways no longer improving socially or economically, and when compared with the rest of the world, effectively going backwards. The point that I was trying to make was that basically that a country that was once a world leader now appears to be doing many things that are causing it to weaken itself and its society and that is causing it to lose what respect it had in the international community. Getting involved in wars that are totally funded by international debt, reducing or removing incentives for companies and individuals to innovate and improve by either modifying the tax breaks, or ease of exports, diluting the quality of teaching the average high school student, demanding the removal of trade barriers in its trading partners while increasing its own trade barriers, placing more and more barriers to immigration, all combine to massively weaken the ability of a society to change and adapt to new economic situations, and to reduce international respect - at least the respect of those that I've talked to in Russia, Canada, SE Asia and the Pacific.

Is the US socially better than most countries in the world? for sure. You have to agree though that some worrying events have occurred in the past decade though ranging from your government's approval of indefinite detention without trail, and use of torture through to growing social disparity between the top and bottom 10% of citizens and having more people in jails than any other country in the world. They are fixable but is the political will to fix them there in either of your major political parties?

As for the creationist thing, the source for the general population is here with 66% of respondents saying that it was either "probably true" or "definitely true" that the earth was less that 10000 years old - http://www.gallup.com/poll/21814/Evolution-Creationism-Intelligent-Design.aspx - I can't find the link to the survey of US senators though.

You've mixed in a ton of subjects

You've mixed in a ton of subjects; too much to cover in one post so I'll be short.

1. The education problem. Read this and you'll see the problem with the education establishment. http://www.reason.com/news/show/28479.html Read about how the education establishment ran a great principle and teacher out of town.

2. I do not see us going backwards. While I think there are many problems that need to be addressed, there's a world of difference between a backward nation and a pretty good one with imperfections.

3. I don't care wha Gallup says; we do not teach creationism in our schools and that's good enough for me. What people want to believe personally is their business.

4. Use of the word "torture". While I think it's perfectly fine to criticize and challenge the legitimacy of prisoner ABUSE, we need to stop abusing the language. Humiliating someone is abuse, ripping someone's finger nail or electrically shocking them or beating them is torture. It's like how the media abuses the world "phone tap". Collecting anonymous calling records (which phone number called which phone number) is NOT phone tapping. If you want to criticize that, fine. But the point is to be honest while you're doing it.

Another Point is the Media Angle

The Media loves to paint a different picture to every story. This also depends on where in the world we are as well. Our media paints the story about how many American lives have been lost in Iraq verses oh I don't know, the amount of total lives lost with the conflict, which is a much bigger and scarier number. However, since Americans can't count that high.(Sarcasm) The truth is the media paints the picture that the only thing we care about is our own self and they reflect that by giving us the daily tally of people we lose in this conflict. Granted we lose more to the automobile accidents in two months then we lost in five years in Iraq. May be we should declare war on cars?

http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/Main/index.aspx <- Proof of statistics

Media loves to twist a story to start a flame war. That's their job though. They don't get paid to report facts, they get paid to keep people interested enough to stay through the commercial break.

As for rampant stupidity of our populace, I get to talk to these science shunning people on a daily basis. I had a classroom that taught evolution, but my history teacher tried to teach otherwise. He was also a third string kicker for the Dallas Cowboys as well as a baseball player and his daddy was on the Arkansas state board of education and he knew Bill Clinton while he was still governor of the great state of Arkansas that at one point had enough power in congress to control the entire country.

Keep in mind, I lived in NW Missouri and cared very little about this class, this man, or the great state of Arkansas.

Prisoner abuse

Not necessarily on topic, but sleep deprivation and water boarding is torture...

And, as a foreigner, I think the problems with the educational system are much, much deeper that those in the link with Escalante's story, and are of a different nature.

To me, the biggest problem, highlighted by Fareed, is that for the longest time mediocrity here was still pretty well rewarded because of the relative wealth of the nation, created by the best here. Now, though, mediocrity elsewhere is easily accessible and is decreasing the reward for it in the States, which has a tremendous negative impact on the nation as a whole.

It is the price of globalization, in a sense.

What's also scary, the level of the best elsewhere is catching up to and exceeding the level of the best here. I don't know what the answer is, but someone had better come up with it pretty soon.

Water boarding is borderline

Water boarding is borderline torture, but I don't think it passes the threshold. I'm not arguing it's right, just that it's not the kind of torture that's typically perpetrated on UN or US troops. Furthermore, almost everyone under the "ticking time bomb" scenario would probably approve of any sort of treatment. This is why the character "Jack Bauer" is almost always seen as a hero.

Sleep deprivation is just extreme interrogation but no way is it torture.

"And, as a foreigner, I think the problems with the educational system are much, much deeper that those in the link with Escalante's story, and are of a different nature."

It's much deeper, but the problem in that Escalante story uncovers the root causes of the problem.

"It is the price of globalization, in a sense."

Not sure what your point on this is. Fareed is arguing that Globalization is a good thing.

Re: Fareed Zakaria: The rise of the rest and the Post-American World

On the first point, George, I still think that the problem with the education is a little different; I think that the story highlights the problem with the society more so than education per se.

But with respect to globalization, I disagree with Fareed. It is a good thing, as a concept, but I think it will continue to have a negative impact as a whole. The thinking is that we will replace jobs that leave with more specialized jobs that we have the know-how for and keep exploiting our superior knowledge, but so far that last part has not panned out, and actually the rest of the world has been getting closer to us in terms of the technical acumen. Or another side of hte argument is that the new markets will create a new source of demand, but we're already relying on those, so I think that factor will balance out in the long run.

I don't know, and to tell you the truth, I don't think anyone does.

I disagree, globalization and free trade is a good thing.

I disagree with you on globalization. Globalization is about free trade. Free trade increases competition and it cross pollinates countries with the best technologies. Any country that closes off free trade is harming itself. Case in point, Japan literally froze in time (technologically) for a few hundred years between the 1400s and 1800s.

Free trade also benefits the world as a whole and it enables everyone to prosper. Free trade has not harmed the US or Europe but it has allowed China and India to grow rapidly. It is quickly reaching a point where it is becoming less cost effective to offshore to India because of rising wages there. Eventually it would make as much sense to offshore to India as it would be to offshore jobs to Japan. This is ultimately the most effective way to “spread the wealth”. I find it ironic that those often speak the need to “spread the wealth” are actually the least willing to walk the walk.